SerenityMovie.net

[Cynewulf the Saxon]

I hope the current version of Prop 8 in California again gets defeated.

I understand something is going on nationally as well.
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[Duncan]

Ironic that we Californians will give bigger cages to chickens, but not let two people who love each other have the same rights as other people.

(And just to be clear, I support better conditions for animals - and I'm vegetarian)

Ironic too that apparently 75% of African American women voters chose to discriminate against a section of the population.

[Jairus]

What rights would those be?

Right to vote?
Right to pass on your belongings to another person?
Right to live together?
Right to buy a house together?
Right to raise kids?

All of these things are already available to each and every person in the state of Kalifornication!

Please explain....
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Jairus Watson
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[Cynewulf the Saxon]

The right to the same benefits for the same job?

Companies offer benefits to some that are not offered to others. I think a level playing field is what this is about.
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Wyrd oft nereth unfaegne eorl, thonne his ellen deah.

[Jairus]

Then petition the insurance company or the business to change THEIR rules instead. Seems simpler than changing an institution that has been in place since time immemorial. Not to mention forcing your ideas and rules down the throats of the majority who have strong convictions based on faith and tradition.
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Jairus Watson
www.jairuswatson.net

[Cynewulf the Saxon]

I'm sorry you feel that a level playing field has to be forced down your throat.

You do understand that there is no requirement for you to change any of your beliefs, don't you? You have the freedom to believe that anyone different than you is going to Hell, and I'll do my part to ensure that you keep that freedom.
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Wyrd oft nereth unfaegne eorl, thonne his ellen deah.

[Jairus]

You have always had a "Level" playing field. Prop 8 is about setting the term "marrage" to mean between a MAN and a WOMAN. Something that is required in order to maintain a consistant stream of normal humanity.

To circumvent that stream is ridiculous and would be the end of humanity in it's natural state.

All the rights gays want are available to them if they would simply LOOK. Instead they want to change all the norms and "bring it all down man"! This is not the majority view and not something that has anything to do with the "RIGHTS" that are already available to you!

[Cynewulf the Saxon]

You are incorrect on a few points.

1. Marriage between a man and a woman is NOT required to maintain a consistant stream. PROCREATION between a man and a woman, however, is.

2. The term "marriage" is already defined in the dictionary as being between a man and a woman. Look it up. There is no need for a proposition or an amendment to the Constitution to do this.

3. The idea that allowing gays to marry will NOT end humanity in its natural state. Unless, of course, you consider that having gays in the population is natural. If you, for example, force gays to enter only straight marriages and procreate, their genes will be passed on to the next generation, so there will continue to "naturally" be gays. If you allow them to marry themselves, their genes will not be passed on.

4. You seem to almost be saying that homosexuality is some kind of disease that will spread if left unchecked. You cannot "catch" homosexuality the way you can catch a cold or the flu. You cannot catch homosexuality any more than you can catch red hair by being exposed to a redhead.

5. You are also bringing religion into the discussion. Though the Founding Fathers were Deists, they were right to keep the church separate from the state. In fact, we should finish that job and separate it further.

6. Since you are bringing your God into the discussion, I have a question for you. Your God created those who are gay. He does not seem in any hurry to correct that mistake. Did that mean God did not make a mistake when He wired their genetic code? It seems that either a) God made a mistake, or b) you are going against God's wishes.

So, what is to be done since you are so concerned about norms, institutions, and the survival of the human race? Here's what I think:

Separate Church from state.

If marriage is to be between a man and a woman only, and sacred in the eyes of God, so be it. But remove the part that makes it legally binding on both parties. You want to get married? Go to the church of your choice and got through whatever ceremony you wish, and believe, if you want, that those who do not do as you will answer to God and burn in hell or any other unspeakable tortures. It's you're right to do so.

BUT, if you want tax breaks and legal protection and the ability for the state to make decisions concerning divorces, alimony, child support, etc., then you must ALSO go to your Justice of the Peace and get a civil contract ratified to go along with your religious one.

Also a bit of advice...in the future, try not to confuse the kingdom of your God with the United States of America. Despite what the talking heads on radio say, they're not the same.
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[Cynewulf the Saxon]

Forgot one thing:

[Jairus]

[Jairus]

Separation of Church and State huh? And where is that found to be a law?
Where in the Constitution is it found Cynewulf?
Perhaps the Declaration of Independence… as I challenge you to find where that is stated as a law or rule anywhere! Yet this statement is continually touted as if LAW and it is not.

Some of our founders were Deists and that is true. But most were pastors in their respective churches, but all to a man were God fearing and believed for a government to maintain control over the masses a believe in something greater than themselves was necessary. Therefore the reference to GOD in the Constitution, and why our laws are in direct connection to the 10 commandments. The 10 commandments by the way were in each and every school until the late 50’s, also were they in all our courthouses and state houses! If the populace believes that to murder is a bad thing because of God’s command then the government doesn’t need to make a million laws to control the people on that and other aspects. Since the commandments have been removed, the State and Federal governments have been working full time writing and rewriting rules and laws to make up for it. Plus our prisons are so overflowing that some of the lesser convicts are being released. Sad really….
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Jairus Watson
www.jairuswatson.net

[Satai]

So if I understand your reasoning a country like mine, where we got rid of the ten commandments in schools a long time before you, should be much worse of than the US when it comes to murder and other crime and we would have a huge lot of laws "...to control the people on that and other aspects."

How come its the exact opposite then?
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Lamb. Innocent and delicious!

[Jairus]

Apples and Oranges if you are trying to compare the two countries! Sweden has less population than the state of Michigan yet a land area bigger than California, thus less density per person. But actually crime is up in Sweden Compared to the rest of Europe.
In the late 1990s a new kind of crime drew the attention of media: muggings among youths. This phenomenon bears a strong relationship to the waves of immigrants that arrived in Sweden the 1990s. This is one reason that rules were tightened with regard to Immigration Then there is the fact that than less than a 1/4 of Swede’s believe in God and attend a church!


The following is my personal opinion:
Jesus said that a "divided house cannot stand". I believe that Satan has already taken that "ground" and he is no longer active in most of Europe. Satan is currently working very powerfully in this battleground of the United States because so far we are the largest grouping of the Christian Church (Non-denominational, Catholic, Protestant and Baptist), a tiny bit more than 75% by last count.
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Jairus Watson
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[Cynewulf the Saxon]

Ah. I get it now. This isn't about gays or politics. It's about you foisting your religion on others. Very well, let's cut to the chase and deal with it from that aspect.

One quick note, however, the US Code is not based upon the 10 Commandments, or we would have written into things about keeping the sabbath day holy, having no other gods, etc. It is based upon British Common Law. Look it up.

Now getting back to the main subject, I want to ask you two questions, plus a lot of little rhetorical ones you need not answer. The first I'll ask right away, and attempt to answer, so you are free to point out where I err. The second I'll ask later.

QUESTION ONE: IS GOD OMNISCIENT?

So you don't have to look it up, "omniscient" means "all knowing." In other words, does God know everything?

1 John 3:20 states that He "knoweth all things." (Okay, I like the KJV because the language is prettier. I know it's a sucky translation. But the NIV says He "knows everything" in the same passage, so at least they're in agreement there.)

Whoa. All. Everything. That's pretty astounding. It doesn't say "some" things, or "most" things, or "almost everything." It flat out states that God is indeed omniscient. No exceptions.

That means that when a baby bird falls from a nest just outside Calcutta, God knows. In fact, that means that in 1850, God already knew that the bird would fall from its nest. Either that, or God wasn't all knowing back in 1850. Not very likely. In fact, God knew about that bird back before the foundations of the earth, didn't He.

Can God be surprised? I wouldn't think so. That would mean that there is something God didn't know and it came as a surprise to Him when it happened.

God must know everything--past, present, and future. If there is any piece of those missing from God's knowledge, then God is not all knowing. That seems pretty cut and dried, leaving nothing to chance or question.

Hebrews tells us that the foundations of the heavens and the earth are all the works of God. With His vast foreknowledge of everything, He framed the earth. He knew how everything would turn out before it was ever created. In fact, it seems reasonable that it was built so that everything would transpire exactly as He knew it would, with no changes or surprises. This, some say, is God' plan, and no one can change what God has already planned out. Even the Lamb of God was foreordained to be sacrified since before the foundations of the earth (1 Peter 1:20).

I am not more powerful than the Lamb of God. Everything I have ever done, ever thought about, every choice I ever made, God knew about before He created everything. God created this world, knowing everything about me. There is no way I can surprise God. I cannot deviate from that path foreseen so very long ago. I cannot go against what God already knows will happen.

Indeed, people's names were either written in the Book of Life before the foundation of the world (Phillippians 3:4) or they were not (Revelation 17:. Those names were written or not, before God ever said "Let there be light." If my name is in the Book of Life, it's because I'm making all the choices God has foreseen, and behaving in a way God already knew about and set in motion. If not, it's for the same reason.

QUESTION TWO: Given that God already knows what choices I shall make, how can I possibly choose to do anything different? Where is my free will when I am already locked into the pattern God has foreseen?

Or are you suggesting I began with a false premise, and that God is not omniscient after all?

And in other news:

[Jairus]

Foisting? No, just explaining where I get my moral basis.
Is God Omniscient? Yes I believe that, but omniscience does not mean an exclusion of "free will"! There is a big difference between knowing and controlling!
Example: You watch old episodes of Firefly and still laugh at the funny lines even though you know them by heart... right? So it is with God I believe. He loves humor and creativity and so I suspect that he enjoys experiencing man's sense of humor.
And though he knows the outcome, we do not! Therefore we still posses the right to to choose the red pill or the blue pill.

There are a lot of things we will never understand and many of those require a thimble full faith.

This thread is about all...Gays, Politics and Religion! Politics, when it is boiled down means getting along with one another for mutual benefit or total control. The three are intertwined and I don't see how they cannot be so.

As for evidence….You cannot see electrical current but you can see the results of it. You cannot see Love yet it is still regarded as a powerful force nonetheless! Likewise there is no physical evidence of God yet billions of people believe he exists based on the result of his beautiful and wonderful creation. The testimony of countless persons both alive and those written accounts of persons long past should also be powerful evidence! Evidence to convict an individual to death only requires the basis of a couple of whitnesses. How can the evidence of a billion testimonies be dismissed so easily?
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Jairus Watson
www.jairuswatson.net

[Cynewulf the Saxon]

Nice dodge. So basically you and I have the illusion of free will.

If God knows you're going to choose the blue pill, is there even the slightest possibility you will choose the red one?

If God is omniscient, you are correct. It is like Firefly. It is scripted and none of the characters will ever do or say anything different. They have no choice but to do or say what they will.
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Wyrd oft nereth unfaegne eorl, thonne his ellen deah.

[Satai]