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| Who agrees with the killing of Wash? |
| Agree |
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65% |
[ 34 ] |
| Disagree |
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34% |
[ 18 ] |
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| Total Votes : 52 |
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joey2264
Joined: 01 Oct 2005
Posts: 36
Location: Gainesville, FL
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 Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 7:22 pm Post subject: Serenity Thoughts |
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The movie was amazing. It was definitely better than I thought it would be, especially after hearing almost all the reviews saw the movie felt like television or had cheap effects; I really don't know where these guys are coming from!! The effects were amazing, the dialogue was amazing (of course), the actors were amazing (of course), the action sequences were amazing (of course). I can see where people would see the "rough-and-tumble" cinematography in some of the fighting scenes, (especially with the Captain), and therefore say it felt unpolished or a little bit slapped together. Not that they are right in their conclusion, but Serenity continues the film-making style of Firefly, deliberately making the camera movements and cutaways "rough", to add to the realism and to show how this is different than genre scifi. All of those reviewers out there, It was deliberate, and it was good!!!
The above being said, I have two major nitpicks with the film. It would be hard to call them nitpicks, ... I can't think of another word.
HE KILLED WASH!!!!!
HE KILLED WASH!!!!!
I thought I had read a lot of spoiler filled reviews before the movie, and thought there wouldn't be any big amazing surprises (I had known about the reverend's death beforehand, but not this), but God!!! When that spike went through Wash's chest I think I almost had a heart attack. HE'S NOT DEAD, HE'S NOT DEAD, HE'S NOT DEAD ... he's dead. I can't believe Joss had the cajones to kill off two major characters. I wasn't that shocked with the Reverend's death, but to kill Wash, I don't know what to say. I am still in shock. I have to say that some of the scene's toward the end of the movie (this one in particular!) had the feeling of the series finales of Angel and Buffy. I wonder if he really doesn't think there will be another tv series, or another movie, or anything. I can see with hindsight Whedon preparing fans for this, when he said that no matter how much he would like to do more movies, he has to let this movie stand on its own. Well it certainly does.
The other nitpick is a hairball compared to Wash's cruel death, but I just thought the ending of the Operative was ... weird!! I mean he killed thousands (if not millions of people, along with Book), and he is allowed to go on his merry way??!! I know he let the crew go in the end, but in my mind, that just wouldn't be enough to let him off the hook. I mean Mal almost killed Jayne when he was going to turn Simon and River over to the authorities, but he just lets this guy go with a stern warning??! He threw the thug into the turbine because he wasn't willing to tell Niska not to go after them, but he lets this guy go??!! Maybe if they had developed the plot so the Operative was forced to do the things he did by the Alliance under protest, but God, he was a fricking mass-murdering psycho, and under Mal's brand of justice, he should have been thrown to the Reavers or something worse (That is just Mal's "way"). Not given a talking to.
You guys should check out the Serenity review on Slate, it was from the point of view of a guy who saw all the episodes of Firefly after he saw the movie, and I agree with absolutely everything he had to say (other than the obligatory knock of Serenity's "rough" action and cheap effects). It is kind of funny when he mentions the "hyper-realistic" effects of the latest Star Wars in comparison; I seem to remember Star War's special effects being knocked for that very reason. No matter, everything else the reviewer said was spot-on, the main thing being the fact that the series was better, hands down. This is not knocking the movie at all, as it is probably the best movie I have seen this year, but it just pales in comparison to the series. That is saying something about the series.
Overall, amazing movie, I can't stop gushing.
Also, a note about "fake" fans, some of you Whedonites need to get a grip. It is just a movie, which means any one of us has every right to hate the movie because of a bad decision that Joss made. I don't hate the movie, but it is plainly obvious to me that is was a bad decision. Whedon is an amazing man, but he is not perfect, and the killing of Wash was a mistake. I extremely doubt there will be a sequel or anything new because of it.
Joss needs to have his mind scrubbed of all his preconcieved notions by being forced to do a corny, hackneyed romantic comedy. He needs to learn that there are other emotions other than humor and angst.
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Haunt
Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 273
Location: Have no place I can be, since I found Serenity
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 8:00 pm Post subject: Re: Serenity Thoughts |
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| joey2264 wrote: | | Joss needs to have his mind scrubbed of all his preconcieved notions by being forced to do a corny, hackneyed romantic comedy. He needs to learn that there are other emotions other than humor and angst. |
Well I disagree that there won't be a sequel because of the death of Wash. I think regardless of how popular or unpopular that particular decision may be, the number of fans that will see this multiple times (and the major guerilla marketing that us Browncoats have been doing to spread the word to the masses) almost guarantees a sequel. And even if there isn't a sequel I highly doubt that this one plot point will be the deal breaker.
However, that said I completely agree with your final paragraph (quoted above). I've been a Joss fan for years, and so it really offends me that there are those questioning my fan status because I disagree with Joss' choice to kill Wash. But after a decade of watching Joss kill/maim/torture any and every character he writes that gets anywhere near a romantic relationship, it's becoming pathological. Everyone talks about the shock value of killing Wash off like that. My thought is the REAL shock would have been to let Wash live. I mean he's involved in a loving, commited marriage, the most realistic marriage ever put on film in my opinion. So we ALL expected Joss to kill him (or Zoe). If he REALLY wanted to shock us he could have changed his modus operandi a bit. I mean it's become Joss' own version of a Hollywood cliche.
Now I've rambled on about this all over this poor message board, but since this thread is specifically asking I'll spell out my trouble with the death of Wash.
I understand the need to kill SOMEONE at that point. I do NOT deny the dramatic effect that that had. I accept that it was done to raise the stakes and make us question whether ANYONE was actually going to survive. But I maintain that Wash was absolutely the WORST choice. Why? Because it all but invalidates all of the articles, interviews and essays over the past several years concerning the remarkable bravery of Joss for fighting the network to get this completely UNtypical television marriage onscreen. Joss has spoken of telling FOX he would not do the show for them if they didn't allow this couple to be happily married the way he wanted. He's held this relationship up as a point of pride for him. And the stark contrast between the Zoe/Wash relationship and practically every other romantic relationship EVER on film (including all of Joss' previous romantic relationships) made them remarkable. It was awe-inspiring to see a storyteller finally learn that a happily married couple are STILL capable of telling dramatic stories. Just because they are married does not mean they are boring or that no stories can be told about them.
But after all that hoopla he still couldn't help but give in to his own cliche. It's a shame that he fought so hard to be allowed to create that couple, since we now know that just like every other Jossverse couple, they were freaking doomed from the beginning. Great job Joss.
While I remain a Joss fan, I am a slightly less enthusiastic fan now. I just can't work up the energy to invest myself in any future romances on Joss' shows. I mean at the end of Serenity we're supposed to buy that Simon and Kaylee have finally gotten together. That's a real shame because every person here knows that if they really, truly DO get together than one or both of them are totally F***ED! I'm not sure how it's entertaining for us to watch the sweet, romantic, sexy end with those two when we all know it's only going to lead to horror, pain and death.
Very uplifting.
And God help Mal and Inara. There was just the slightest forward momentum with them by the end of the film. If THAT ever leads anywhere than I say Inara might as well just put a bullet in her own brain, 'cause that consumated love will ultimately lead to pain and sorrow on a MYTHIC scale. Joss can't have it any other way.
It seems that, knowing the kind of storyteller that Joss is, we watch all of his shows not for the sake of seeing what story he'll tell, but rather how he'll screw up another romance. What sort of suffering can he heap upon the various lovers. Not WILL he heap suffering on them, but WHEN HE DOES, what kind of suffering will it be.
That's not storytelling. That's a cry for therapy.
Joss most DEFINITELY needs to learn that there are other forms of emotion besides humor and angst.
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Nycthor
Joined: 01 Oct 2005
Posts: 2
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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I was sitting there, in the theatre...
"I am a leaf on the wi..*ugh*"
*deathly silence*
Ok..first of all, I did not like Joss's decision to kill off Wash. FIrst of, he was one of my personal favorite characters, but thing's to have to be done that some fans don't like. I mean, it felt like he already had killed off a character when Serenity landed. I though the ship might never leave the ground again. And then that spike just impaling Wash. For me it was a little too much to take in all at once, especially right after that action scene. And another thing: was it just me, or did his death seem "cheap" in a way. I mean, just impaled.
And please feel free to tell me that I'm psycho and that it was good he died, and that Joss was right to kill him, and blah blah. |
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techsavant
Joined: 01 Sep 2005
Posts: 6
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 9:49 pm Post subject: Having troubles with this Poll... |
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Agree with killing Wash???
The deed is done... theres no going back... no "we must return to the Genesis planet and pick up Spock". So let it go people.
I have to say I'm very saddened by losing Wash, he was a great character. But we are talking Reavers here... Remember, REAVERS??? The ones everyone feared because they were the most unrepentant group of folk in the 'verse? I can't say I expected this to happen, but it drives home the point the amount of danger the crew faced... And oddly, even though I'm still shocked by the loss... Its appropriate somehow.
So I guess that makes me agree with his death??? I dunno I genuinely liked his character... I'll miss him in the sequels. I wish he wasn't dead. But its not my 'verse to play with only to watch... It added some "real life" to the story, which is noticeably absent in films these days. It makes the story even more believable if you ask me!
It's strange isn't it... We all seem to accept Book's death, leaving all those questions unanswered, but Wash seems to have hit a cord. Funny how that works huh?
Here's to hoping this weeks box office automatically deems the production of II & III.
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Asty
Joined: 18 Jun 2005
Posts: 126
Location: Oregon
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 10:59 pm Post subject: |
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Agree or disagree at will. Doesn't change the fact. It's a hard life
out on the raggedy edge.
Wash was a popular character (my personal favorite)...but he was expendable. Mal knows how to fly, I'm pretty sure Zoe does as well, and obviously, so does River. I agree that no one will fly the way he did, but other than comic relief (capably filled by Jayne as well) and being a supportive husband and just being generally likeable...well...really...he was the logical choice. And I've seen this film 4 times in the last week and every time I try to figure out who else it could have been and no one comes to mind (well....maybe Inara...she's always kind of been just attractive filler in my way of viewing it).
No one's knocking anyone's fandom, but I'm tired of the people screaming that they'll never see a Joss Whedon movie/TV series just because he killed off a popular character. Debate it intelligently (as posted by joey2264) and I'll read your post and respect your position.
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SerenelyWyrd
Joined: 21 Sep 2005
Posts: 27
Location: KC, MO
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 4:06 am Post subject: Re: Serenity Thoughts |
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| Haunt wrote: | | joey2264 wrote: | | Joss needs to have his mind scrubbed of all his preconcieved notions by being forced to do a corny, hackneyed romantic comedy. He needs to learn that there are other emotions other than humor and angst. |
Well I disagree that there won't be a sequel because of the death of Wash. I think regardless of how popular or unpopular that particular decision may be, the number of fans that will see this multiple times (and the major guerilla marketing that us Browncoats have been doing to spread the word to the masses) almost guarantees a sequel. And even if there isn't a sequel I highly doubt that this one plot point will be the deal breaker.
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Yeah. It's not really that difficult to bring Wash, or Book for that matter, back for a brief period in some future sequel movie anyway, thanks to the awesome power of flashback.
| Haunt wrote: |
I've been a Joss fan for years, and so it really offends me that there are those questioning my fan status because I disagree with Joss' choice to kill Wash. But after a decade of watching Joss kill/maim/torture any and every character he writes that gets anywhere near a romantic relationship, it's becoming pathological. Everyone talks about the shock value of killing Wash off like that. My thought is the REAL shock would have been to let Wash live. I mean he's involved in a loving, commited marriage, the most realistic marriage ever put on film in my opinion. So we ALL expected Joss to kill him (or Zoe). If he REALLY wanted to shock us he could have changed his modus operandi a bit. I mean it's become Joss' own version of a Hollywood cliche.
Now I've rambled on about this all over this poor message board, but since this thread is specifically asking I'll spell out my trouble with the death of Wash.
I understand the need to kill SOMEONE at that point. I do NOT deny the dramatic effect that that had. I accept that it was done to raise the stakes and make us question whether ANYONE was actually going to survive. But I maintain that Wash was absolutely the WORST choice. Why? Because it all but invalidates all of the articles, interviews and essays over the past several years concerning the remarkable bravery of Joss for fighting the network to get this completely UNtypical television marriage onscreen. Joss has spoken of telling FOX he would not do the show for them if they didn't allow this couple to be happily married the way he wanted. He's held this relationship up as a point of pride for him. And the stark contrast between the Zoe/Wash relationship and practically every other romantic relationship EVER on film (including all of Joss' previous romantic relationships) made them remarkable. It was awe-inspiring to see a storyteller finally learn that a happily married couple are STILL capable of telling dramatic stories. Just because they are married does not mean they are boring or that no stories can be told about them.
But after all that hoopla he still couldn't help but give in to his own cliche. It's a shame that he fought so hard to be allowed to create that couple, since we now know that just like every other Jossverse couple, they were freaking doomed from the beginning. Great job Joss.
While I remain a Joss fan, I am a slightly less enthusiastic fan now. I just can't work up the energy to invest myself in any future romances on Joss' shows. I mean at the end of Serenity we're supposed to buy that Simon and Kaylee have finally gotten together. That's a real shame because every person here knows that if they really, truly DO get together than one or both of them are totally F***ED! I'm not sure how it's entertaining for us to watch the sweet, romantic, sexy end with those two when we all know it's only going to lead to horror, pain and death.
Very uplifting.
And God help Mal and Inara. There was just the slightest forward momentum with them by the end of the film. If THAT ever leads anywhere than I say Inara might as well just put a bullet in her own brain, 'cause that consumated love will ultimately lead to pain and sorrow on a MYTHIC scale. Joss can't have it any other way.
It seems that, knowing the kind of storyteller that Joss is, we watch all of his shows not for the sake of seeing what story he'll tell, but rather how he'll screw up another romance. What sort of suffering can he heap upon the various lovers. Not WILL he heap suffering on them, but WHEN HE DOES, what kind of suffering will it be.
That's not storytelling. That's a cry for therapy.
Joss most DEFINITELY needs to learn that there are other forms of emotion besides humor and angst. |
I'm laughing out loud a lot as I read this, and agreeing with you a lot. Of the various "Joss should not have killed Wash" arguments people might be able to make, I think yours is the strongest. Joss really does seem to have a pathological obession with getting people romantically involved, and then killing off one of the characters. Wash and Zoe were the exception, now they aren't.
But, even though that kind of sucks, I still see the silver lining--this rather silly trend on Joss's part is just begging for parody. I can see it now: Mal and Inara kiss passionately, and somehow it initiates a chain of circumstances that fragments the law that holds the Universe together! lol. There is much potential for humor here. 
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wolfger
Joined: 25 Sep 2005
Posts: 61
Location: New Baltimore, MI
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 9:08 am Post subject: Re: Serenity Thoughts |
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| joey2264 wrote: | | The other nitpick is a hairball compared to Wash's cruel death, but I just thought the ending of the Operative was ... weird!! I mean he killed thousands (if not millions of people, along with Book), and he is allowed to go on his merry way??!! I know he let the crew go in the end, but in my mind, that just wouldn't be enough to let him off the hook. I mean Mal almost killed Jayne when he was going to turn Simon and River over to the authorities, but he just lets this guy go with a stern warning??! He threw the thug into the turbine because he wasn't willing to tell Niska not to go after them, but he lets this guy go??!! |
Difference between Jayne and The Operative is betrayal. Jayne betrayed the crew. The Operative was just an adversary doing his job. Doing what he thought was right.
And Mal let Jayne off with a warning, same as The Operative, because each had learned the error of their ways. Each decided to do right in the end.
Niska's thug was killed, basically, for refusing to see the light and do the right thing.
And let's not forget than Mal spared the life of I-can't-remember-her-name, who had shot him once before, and then double-crossed Mal when he did business with her again. And she wasn't even repentant. If any of these 4 incidents is out of character for Mal, it's that one. He left her alive, and she was still an enemy. The Operative had ceased to be an enemy by the end of the Big Damn Movie.
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ash
Joined: 02 Oct 2005
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 9:10 am Post subject: |
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| Saffronwas her name-o |
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Cynewulf the Saxon
Joined: 28 Jun 2004
Posts: 1389
Location: Vallejo, CA
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 9:12 am Post subject: |
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Actually, "Patience" was her name-o.
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ash
Joined: 02 Oct 2005
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 9:14 am Post subject: |
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| thank you |
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Sprtfan
Joined: 01 Oct 2005
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 9:21 am Post subject: |
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| Since wolfger refers to shot once before I think he is talking about Patience, the old women that ran the moon from the pilot. |
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Sprtfan
Joined: 01 Oct 2005
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 9:21 am Post subject: |
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| Wow, I need to learn how to reply faster I guess lol |
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wolfger
Joined: 25 Sep 2005
Posts: 61
Location: New Baltimore, MI
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 9:38 am Post subject: |
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Yes. Patience. Thanks...
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Carmen
Joined: 19 Aug 2005
Posts: 53
Location: Either the West or East Coast
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 10:01 am Post subject: |
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I voted 'agree' because I don't think Joss did the easy thing or the unrealistic thing in killing him. I could never willingly let go of Wash.
And I think Alan Tudyk and Ron Glass are fairly impressed and maybe even touched that all the fans are so violently upset at the death.
But it was still a good movie. And bad things happen that we cannot control. |
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blackhawk557
Joined: 02 Oct 2005
Posts: 1
Location: Indiana
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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I am a very recent fan of Firefly. In fact It's been less than a week since I was " converted " if you will. It was just by chance that I caught the pilot episode on the SciFi channel in what turned out to be an all day marathon (Much to the detriment of my work schedual that day) I was hooked.
Now I must profess I have never seen an episode of Buffy or Angel, so I was unfamiliar with Mr. Whedons style of writing. But I must admit it is some of the best Sci-fi I have seen on TV in quite a while. ( ok except for the New Battlestar Gallactica, which is AMAZING! )
But the Marathon did it's job it got me to go see Serenity early Friday afternoon (Again much to the the detriment of my work schedual) and to order my own copy of the series from Amazon.
Now strictly speaking as a very new fan of both the series and film, I agree with killing off Wash. I would say that he was one of my favorite characters, but in all honesty they are all my favorite characters. Yes it makes me sad that he dies. I enjoyed the fact that there was finaly a strong and healthy marrage in a sci-fi series (now that's rare!)
And quite honestly he might have been the most well adjusted of all the characters. But his death really drives home the point, that all bets are off.
This isn't a compfy TV series anymore. People can die now!
I was also sad that Book dies. thereby taking all of the mysteries of his past with him. But then again it also keeps his past that much more interesting. The best thing about a mystery is speculating with fellow fans.
The fact of the matter is, we as viewers still have all the moments of these characters pasts to enjoy. Also we have the New characters, and adventures of the future to look forward to. I sincearly hope that there is more, either in movies or even television to enjoy.
That being said it doesn't make the loss of two such characters any less sad, just all the more real.
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davejames
Joined: 02 Oct 2005
Posts: 13
Location: Sacramento, Ca
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 5:05 pm Post subject: Re: Serenity Thoughts |
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| Haunt wrote: |
It seems that, knowing the kind of storyteller that Joss is, we watch all of his shows not for the sake of seeing what story he'll tell, but rather how he'll screw up another romance. What sort of suffering can he heap upon the various lovers. Not WILL he heap suffering on them, but WHEN HE DOES, what kind of suffering will it be.
That's not storytelling. That's a cry for therapy.
Joss most DEFINITELY needs to learn that there are other forms of emotion besides humor and angst. |
Therapy? That seems a bit extreme, considering we're talking about a bunch of fantasy characters who either fight vampires and demons or fly in a spaceship in the distant future. 
I'd swear people are reacting to Wash's death as if Joss killed their own BROTHER or something! I'm a huge Firefly fan and worship the ground Joss walks on like everybody else here, but I also realize these are nothing but CHARACTERS IN A STORY. No matter how much I care for them and miss then when they're gone, it's the larger story Joss is telling that I'm most interested in.
Somehow I think if Joss DIDN'T take those chances and kill off beloved characters like he does, we wouldn't be nearly as addicted to his work as we are. He would be just another safe, predictable storyteller putting out another safe, predictable show. |
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funnygirl
Joined: 20 Aug 2005
Posts: 163
Location: Not tellin' no more...just in case you can kill me with your brain
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 5:28 pm Post subject: Re: Serenity Thoughts |
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| davejames wrote: |
Therapy? That seems a bit extreme, considering we're talking about a bunch of fantasy characters who either fight vampires and demons or fly in a spaceship in the distant future.
I'd swear people are reacting to Wash's death as if Joss killed their own BROTHER or something! I'm a huge Firefly fan and worship the ground Joss walks on like everybody else here, but I also realize these are nothing but CHARACTERS IN A STORY. No matter how much I care for them and miss then when they're gone, it's the larger story Joss is telling that I'm most interested in.
Somehow I think if Joss DIDN'T take those chances and kill off beloved characters like he does, we wouldn't be nearly as addicted to his work as we are. He would be just another safe, predictable storyteller putting out another safe, predictable show. |
Everyone is posting and most everyone seems so angry and are saying some really harsh things about Joss when just a few days ago he was a god and could do no wrong. He made a decision. What that decision was based on, none of us know. But all that happened is we lost two great characters. Will we ever know Book's secrets? Probably not. Will we see Wash and Zoe continue to confound us with their illogical love affair? Sadly, we know that answer. But Joss didn't do anything to you. He did it to the character. Not to you. Someone posted a spoiler in the general room and I saw it before it was pulled and so I knew hours before seeing the movie for the first time that Wash dies. Even so, I was in shock. But Joss didn't kill Wash. Reavers did. Joss used a device in writing that upped the stakes. That showed that it's not just bad guys and guys with bad attitudes that get killed. It's the guy you love. The guy you think of as a friend. 'Cause that's what happens.
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ewe2
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 12:46 pm Post subject: Fandom is weird |
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| Can Buffy fans please leave their prejudices at the door? Whatever Joss does in the context of a story is his call and isn't necessarily based on whatever worked on previous projects. Alan Tudyk was in favour of this particular death in any case (pretty realistic from an actor's POV), and it works for the story. This fandom isn't concerned about Joss' previous work, it is concerned with the present. This thread could have been mistaken for the kind of whining normally found on HP forums. We are a little more grown-up than that surely? |
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Haunt
Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 273
Location: Have no place I can be, since I found Serenity
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| Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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See, I am neither a "Joss is God" fan OR a "whiny, Joss killed my best friend" fan. I'm a realistic fan. I'm one of those fans able to love the story being told while still disagreeing with some of the methods chosen to tell that story.
It's unrealistic to expect people who have been fans of Joss' for years (those ewe2 so dismissively refers to as "Buffy fans") to leave behind their feelings on nearly a decade of storytelling. It's just not going to happen. I loved Buffy since the pilot episode, but by the end of the seventh and final season I was basically over it. The various storytelling decisions made (by Joss and his trusted staff of writers), while 99% fantastic, disappointed me. And the spin-off series Angel (which I consider superior to Buffy), while it never totally lost me the way the first series did, still displayed some of those disappointing storytelling choices. It ended amazingly, and I was more-or-less completely satisfied with the story that was told there. But Joss definitely stuck by some of his metaphorical "guns" when it came to storytelling decisions.
Now unlike most everyone else I've seen post on the subject, I do not strictly speaking have a "conversion story". That's because I was deeply entrenched in the Jossverse fan community for years before Firefly was even a sparkle in Joss' eye. I didn't stumble upon the show by accident one night. Nor did I start watching it and get confused by the way the episodes were arranged. Why? Because I knew for months that the show was coming, and I knew for months that FOX had decided not to air the original pilot. I knew in advance everytime an episode was coming up whether or not it was in original sequential order. However, having said that it helped tremendously to finally get the DVD's and see the whole thing in order the way Joss intended.
But after years of watching Joss' shows and discussing (and often arguing) with fellow fans over what Joss was saying with his storylines, it's impossible for me (and I suspect many others) to view Firefly as a 100% self-contained format. Joss carries baggage with him from his past works. In fact that's why a large percentage of the fanbase for THIS show even showed up in the first place. Some people say "You all know what Joss is like so why act surprised" out of one side of their mouths, then out of the other "This show isn't Buffy or Angel so don't carry all your prejudices from those shows over to this one."
Well which is it?
Joss ALWAYS kills someone. Fine, I get that. I expected it going in. I accept it now. I love the movie. I've seen it multiple times. I'm seeing many more times again. I'll buy the DVD (as many versions as they feel like making, 'cause I'm a sucker like that). I've got the soundtrack. I'm still a Browncoat, and I'm still guerilla marketing and pimping the show and the movie to anyone that will listen.
But for reasons already explained ad nauseum I feel that Wash was the wrong choice for Joss to kill. That's it. It doesn't ruin anything for me... except for the fact that it is now the thousandth time Joss has used his same ol' cliche of torturing/killing a happy love affair. What it (potentially) ruins for me is my investment in any future love affairs he portrays on screen. After seeing this same ol' tired cliche trotted out time after time after time after time, I've finally reached the point where any future romance on a Joss show/film I will be completely unable to care... because I KNOW it won't mean anything. I already know how any love story in a Joss film will end. It's only taken a thousand examples to finally prove it to me, but proven it is.
I'll still WATCH future Joss projects. I'll more than likely still LOVE future Joss projects. I'll still be a Browncoat, and I'll still pimp his works to the huddled masses out there. But if the romance of two characters is a major part of any future Joss projects, I think it's fair to tell him that he's lost (or at least SEVERELY jeapordized) any real fan commitment to that storyline. There's only so many times he can use the same gimmick before some fans will just stop giving a damn.
If you DON'T feel that way, awesome! Best of luck to you in the future. Most likely you HAVEN'T been burned by your love for a Jossian love affair before... even though many of you admit that we all know "that's just what Joss does." If you are somehow able to actually care about the love of two characters in Joss' future stories, even knowing that it's not going to lead to anything, well then I envy you. But I will not go along with that.
In the (inevitable?) Serenity sequel I'll eagerly sign up to see what happens. I'm hoping to get some flashbacks to Book's past, hopefully mixed in with some more backstory on Mal and Zoe in the war. I'd love to see the Battle of Serenity Valley on the big screen. I'll enjoy (in a bittersweet way) any flashbacks to Wash and Zoe's relationship. I'm dying to see their wedding, or more of their courtship. How exactly DID she stop being bothered by him enough to fall in love with him?
What I won't do is care about whatever love story may or may not be told between Mal and Inara. I already know it won't lead to anything but suffering. That doesn't interest me. And I won't give a damn about the now-requited love between Simon and Kaylee, because everyone knows that one or both of them are now doomed. The stories that can be told AROUND those love stories will interest me, but I'm just not ever going to invest in caring about the outcome of those love stories themselves. And while that does not (as some insist on implying) destroy my love of Joss or Firefly/Serenity... it is a sad limitation on it.
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"Pain or damage don’t end the world, or despair or f*cking beatin’s. The world ends when you’re dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man — and give some back."
Wesley Wyndam-Pryce ~ The ORIGINAL Browncoat |
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CocoaPuf
Joined: 26 Apr 2004
Posts: 157
Location: Ottawa, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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I guess seeing flashbacks of the happy couple wouldn't be so bad, being as we already know how it ends - there wouldnt be any of that Joss-curse hanging over things any more!  |
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Grumble
Joined: 03 Oct 2005
Posts: 18
Location: World of Warcraft
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| Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 pm Post subject: repost :edit |
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double post oops.
_________________
"If you take advantage of that young woman you'll be going to a very special hell reserved for those that talk in the theater."
-Book
Last edited by Grumble on Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:35 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Grumble
Joined: 03 Oct 2005
Posts: 18
Location: World of Warcraft
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| Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:33 pm Post subject: repost :edit |
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*not to bog everything down with a repost It was just too far down the thread... and I'd really like to get some feedback on this. You guys seem like you'll have somthing to add take away .. theorize. Heres my problem whith the mass casualty lesson that was Serenity:
| Carmen wrote: | As much as Serenity is science fiction, Joss Whedon writes for realism. Because it would be the cheap easy conventional Hollywood escape to let everyone live happily ever after.
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Realism my asp.. The Mechanics of Wash's death were warped. He crashed with the reavers in persuit (behind him) .. and his first words after the wreck are met with a freaky blade through the chest .. which IS NOT THE REAVER WAY! They tow you in and keep you alive .. it's a disabled EMP'd ship .. why the heck did they outright kill Wash!? I'll tell you why.. Shock .. plain out shock. Whedon wanted a response.
The motive behind Mr. Universe' death was really warped too. The kid didn't do anything. He hadn't failed the alliance. That makes about as much sense as gutting every companion in the Academy.
This is why this pisses me off. Think about those crazy "thinky flicks" you know blah blah blah .. difficult to understand .. lots of undercurrent. I'm all about the thinky flick "American Beauty" .. ok .. but then theres' "The Hours" Did not .. make .. one .. dang .. bit of sense. The only thing I got in that movie was that all the female cast were lesbians. And it wasn't like it was too deep .. it was more like some college brat sitting behind the screen screaming "HA HA! There's no way you can understand me STupid!"
That is kinda what I'm beginning to think Joss was doing with Serenity. Killed Universe .. suuuck.. Killed Book.. SuuuuUUkk! Gutted Wash mid sentence in a way in contrast to the continuity of what we understand of Reavers = Joss Wheadon in a swingset going .. haha! deal with it .. it's my show! Bet ya didn't see that comin! I'm Hip and Ruthless watch my croanies defend me!
If you ask me .. Whedon sold out. Wash should've been captured eaten alive and skinned or shot by Mal in the process. But that would've freaked everybody out so he probably said .. uhh .. just .. shove a .. uhh roof of a dog house through his chest mid sentence.. yeah .. I'm Joss Whedon.
If you're going to do it .. do it with continuity .. pansy.
(afterthought edit)
I always enjoyed the cowboys and indians thing the rebles/reavers had going now in place of the uncivilized wild culture on the fringe it feels more like they're the galactic crackheads. 
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"If you take advantage of that young woman you'll be going to a very special hell reserved for those that talk in the theater."
-Book |
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Haunt
Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 273
Location: Have no place I can be, since I found Serenity
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| Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 5:46 pm Post subject: Re: repost :edit |
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| Grumble wrote: | | The Mechanics of Wash's death were warped. He crashed with the reavers in persuit (behind him). |
Actually, if you watch it again (which you should) you'll notice that Serenity spins around during the crash, finally coming to rest facing back the way she came... with the oncoming Reavers heading straight at them.
| Grumble wrote: | | The motive behind Mr. Universe' death was really warped too. The kid didn't do anything. He hadn't failed the alliance. That makes about as much sense as gutting every companion in the Academy. |
That was actually the point of the scene. Though it didn't show very well on screen, if you read the shooting script (or the novelization) that was a moment where The Operative momentarily lost control. He angrily killed Mr. Universe without consciously intending to, and without really knowing why he'd done it. Watch the look on his face right after he kills him. He's confused and disturbed by having done it. We're supposed to surmise that the conflict with Mal is wearing through The Operative's carefully cultivated emotional control.
_________________
"Pain or damage don’t end the world, or despair or f*cking beatin’s. The world ends when you’re dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man — and give some back."
Wesley Wyndam-Pryce ~ The ORIGINAL Browncoat |
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White Knight
Joined: 09 Sep 2005
Posts: 143
Location: Wollongong, NSW, Australia
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| Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 12:49 am Post subject: |
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"I'm not making you angry, am I?" - Mal, after the Operative gets him in the back with a cheap shot.
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