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gobluegirl
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 539
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 Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 4:59 am Post subject: Fan Fiction and relationship pairing - shipping discussion |
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Some questions have arisen about Tales From The 'Verse's policy on relationships between characters that are off the norm. That is, ones that Joss did not originally intend.
So long as the fan fiction is well-written, does not include pornography, and the characterizations are believable, and follows our submission guidelines http://www.talesfromtheverse.com/submissions.shtml it will be considered.
Relationships between characters is a common feature of fan fiction. Even if those relationships are not the ones Joss intended, a story won't be rejected out of hand just because of an unusual pairing.
I mean, who really thought Buffy and Spike would get together? It's wierd, but it works, and Joss OK'd it.
It's really going to be a decision the editors (myself included) will to make on an individual basis, after reading a particular story. Some pairings may work fine for the story, but some may be well-written, but just too "out there"
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White Knight
Joined: 09 Sep 2005
Posts: 143
Location: Wollongong, NSW, Australia
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| Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 3:01 am Post subject: |
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WHAT?!? Buffy and Spike get together?!?!? 
(kidding, kidding!   )
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Companion Kate
Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Posts: 2014
Location: UK
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| Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 5:31 am Post subject: |
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| gobluegirl wrote: | | and the characterizations are believable |
See - this is the tricky part. How can you make the characterizations believable in a non-canon pairing?
Your Buffy/Spike example illustrates my very point. If a Buffy+Spike story had happened during season 2 it would have been out of character for both parties. Joss made it work because he was able to show that character development over many stories. If you're allowed to spread the journey over many stories, then it's easy. The question is, can it be done in one?
There are many examples in Buffy of doing it in one - but they all involved magic. In one episode, all the girls fall for Xander; in another, Buffy and Spike fall for each other and crave marriage. But in both cases, they were under the influence of a magic spell, and in fact, were behaving out of character in those episodes. Only the magic spell made it acceptible.
There was a Star Trek TNG episode in which Will Riker and Ro Laren (who ordinarily hate each other) got it together. The mechanism by which this was achieved is that everyone got amnesia, so Riker and Ro forgot that they hated each other. But to be honest, even that's too fanciful for Firefly, which has to be about "real world" things, like getting enough money to eat.
So my question - is there a way to believably put (for example) River and Jayne together as a couple, in a single story?
If the answer is yes, then Tales from the 'Verse is open for strange pairings, but I remain to be convinced that it can be done.
Thoughts?
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Cynewulf the Saxon
Joined: 28 Jun 2004
Posts: 1389
Location: Vallejo, CA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 7:00 am Post subject: |
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So, when will Spike and Kaylee get together?
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gobluegirl
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 539
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| Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 9:23 am Post subject: |
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Hey Cynewulf,
You win for most unrealistic pairing. ever. Worse than Troi and Worf (to refer back to TNG pairings).
gbg
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dougom
Joined: 27 Dec 2005
Posts: 165
Location: Austin, TX, where we remain weird
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| Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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| gobluegirl wrote: | Hey Cynewulf,
You win for most unrealistic pairing. ever. Worse than Troi and Worf (to refer back to TNG pairings). |
Naw; I could buy Troy and Worf. Worf had that whole "fierce as a Klingon on the outside, with the heart of a marshmallow on the inside" thing going. Buffy had a very dark, sardonic edge to here, and I can see her and Spike finding some common ground. But Kaylee and Spike? He'd off her in, like, 3 minutes. How much cheerfulness do you think he could take before he'd have to kill someone? |
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Cynewulf the Saxon
Joined: 28 Jun 2004
Posts: 1389
Location: Vallejo, CA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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I dunno, I'm pretty sure Kaylee would like his poetry.
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Companion Kate
Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Posts: 2014
Location: UK
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| Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 11:17 pm Post subject: |
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Now guys, you're cheating. No crossovers. There are no vampires in the 'verse.
Still - how about Jubal and Kaylee? (Ouch). Badger and River could work, I think. And my favorite of all for its amusement potential - Saffron and Book.
But no one's answered the question yet. Is there any way to make any of these pairings believable in a single story. By "believeable", I mean, something we can imagine might have been a real, Joss-approved, Firefly episode.
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Thad
Joined: 04 May 2006
Posts: 124
Location: New Zealand
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| Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 1:31 am Post subject: |
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Oh, there could be a number of ways of doing this, but a lot of it comes down to being a very good writers. A bad writer could ruin even a canon pair, and sometimes people just go to far (I would refer to the Ian and Barbara relationship in the Past Doctor Adventures over in the Doctor Who book range, but have no idea if anyone would follow me...).
Anyways, there is...
The External Influence. When River says "Why don't you two go get a room?" you better believe they'll be getting a room! And with hi-larious results.
The Shared Experience. Either a dangerous mission, or locked in a shuttle, with lots of sharings of feelings and other bodily components...
The Practical Joke Turned Real. Character X pretends to like Y as a joke. Y thinks it's real and realises they have feelings for X. X then realises they have feelings for Y. Aaawww.....
The Fling/Revenge. Character X turns to Y for comfort/revenge after yet another fight with Z. Sharing of feelings and more...
...and so on. But as I said, even an impossible pairing can be made believe with good writing. (Wash and Jayne anyone? )
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Companion Kate
Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Posts: 2014
Location: UK
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| Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 2:13 am Post subject: |
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I guess I'm inclined to agree. Other possible strategies could include brainwashing or drugs.
On the brainwashing front, we already know from the movie that River has been "programmed" to go apeshit on seeing whatever command it was that was embedded into the Fruity Oaty bar commercial. It is feasible that perhaps she was also programmed to start shagging people on receipt of a different command. A story could be written in which River received such a command while Jayne was around. Hell, Jayne might even start to resist ( - he's a little afraid of River), but ultimately he probably wouldn't be able to. I think that could be done credibly. (I'm even kinda tempted to try writing that one myself, but truthfully I don't have time, so I won't).
On the drugs front, there is a story in the Virtual Seasons called "Mixed Nuts" which sets up a scenario in which non-canon pairings could have happened believably. Basically some of River's medication ends up in the crew's food, with high-larious results. I can imagine some non-canon pairings resulting from this kind of scenario.
So I've been convinced. I started out not seeing how it could be done. Now I've been persuaded that it's possible.
So all you non-canon shippers out there, go for it. But remember, it's not enough merely to state that one character fancies another - you have to make me believe it, and if you've only got one story in which to do it, you'll have to work hard. But there are ideas here that could work, and with enough imagination, I'm sure you can come up with more. The door is open, and I actually would like to read some serious attempts to do this. (Although a mechanism by which Wash and Jayne become believeable still eludes me )
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Thad
Joined: 04 May 2006
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Location: New Zealand
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| Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 3:30 am Post subject: |
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| Companion Kate wrote: | | I guess I'm inclined to agree. Other possible strategies could include brainwashing or drugs. |
I'd file those under External Influences.
Another one would be: The Matchmaker. Especially if a Companion-esque person was involved. Could manipulate X and Y to make them think they had feelings for each other.
Oh, and throw in Drink as a possible scenario too. Lots and lots of alcohol (especially Kaylee's) could lower those inhibitions...
| Companion Kate wrote: | | On the brainwashing front, we already know from the movie that River has been "programmed" [...] It is feasible that perhaps she was also programmed to start shagging people on receipt of a different command. |
That way lies PWP! Is this supposed to be a PG rated show?
| Companion Kate wrote: | | (Although a mechanism by which Wash and Jayne become believeable still eludes me ) |
Well, if that isn't an invite to a challenge... (although not one I'm going to try...)
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Companion Kate
Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Posts: 2014
Location: UK
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| Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 5:27 am Post subject: |
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| Thad wrote: | | That way lies PWP! |
Professional Women Photographers?
Parents Without Partners?
PWP Wiki Processor?
Explain...?
| Thad wrote: | | Is this supposed to be a PG rated show? |
No. TftV is adult rated.
That said, there won't ever be porn on TftV, because porn and quality writing are mutually exclusive, and none of the voice artists can bring themselves to say "throbbing loins" without laughing.
I wasn't specifically challenging anyone do to a specific pairing. It remains true that I haven't read any that are simultaneously believable and quality fiction. Now that I've conceded it's possible, I'd be happy with any example.
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Thad
Joined: 04 May 2006
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Location: New Zealand
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| Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Companion Kate wrote: | | Thad wrote: | | That way lies PWP! |
Professional Women Photographers?
Parents Without Partners?
PWP Wiki Processor?
Explain...?
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Porn Without Plot. Sex for the sake of talking about genital contact. Very low on characterisation, very high on bodily fluids. In this case, you could enter the arena of 'pudcast'ing! 
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Thad
"I reject your reality, and substitute my own." - Adam Savage, Mythbuster |
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Firestalker5
Joined: 02 May 2006
Posts: 38
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| Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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I was wondering if this story could convince you that certain pairings can be written well. I don;t agree with them, but the description of the need for them were written well.
It might even change your mind about that Wash and Jayne pairing, Companion Kate.  Maybe.
http://www.flower-and-leaf.com/viewstory.php?sid=58&i=1
It's fifteen chapters, but I found it a good read when I found it. |
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Companion Kate
Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Posts: 2014
Location: UK
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| Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 3:09 am Post subject: |
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It is indeed a good story. However, it is a novel. It's easy to make non-standard pairings convincing in a novel, because you've got time to show the whole journey. At fifteen chapters, that would be roughly equivalent to fifteen short stories, or fifteen episodes of Tales from the 'Verse. It doesn't address my original question: can it be done in one?
But thank you very much for introducing me to a damn good Firefly novel.  I'm reading it now.
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gobluegirl
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 539
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| Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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See, I think it's going to be hard in a short story of under 12,000 words to make a non-canon pairing believable.
Not impossible, but difficult. I'm sure there are many writers up to the task.
gbg
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Darkstar
Joined: 03 Feb 2006
Posts: 30
Location: South Lake Tahoe, CA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Thad wrote: | | Companion Kate wrote: | | (Although a mechanism by which Wash and Jayne become believeable still eludes me ) |
Well, if that isn't an invite to a challenge... (although not one I'm going to try...) |
Yikes! I'd have to agree that that pairing (under *any* circumstances) would certainly elude me too! <g>
Rachel (that picture hurt my brain)
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BrownCoat_Tabz
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
Posts: 412
Location: San Pedro, CA
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| Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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Now ya'll got me thinking about Spike and Kaylee..... gorramit.
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Companion Kate
Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Posts: 2014
Location: UK
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| Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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...or Mal/Buffy
...or Jayne/Cordy
...or Willow/Inara
These things are not my cup of tea, but, ya know, I just like to throw these things out there to put a spanner in the works.
I guess everyone's happy now, because the shippy lovers can listen to Strangely Literal.
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BrownCoat_Tabz
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
Posts: 412
Location: San Pedro, CA
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| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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Mannn... I like the Jayne/Cordy thing.... seesh.
Somone get me a cold shower... now!
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beast
Joined: 06 Apr 2006
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | ...or Willow/Inara |
ummm....
I'll be in my bunk....
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BrownCoat_Tabz
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
Posts: 412
Location: San Pedro, CA
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| Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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lol
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